From Teacher to Award-Winning Surveyor

Hello and welcome to episode 10 of the Scafol Survey Solutions podcast. Today I'm thrilled to be joined by Neil Trewick. Am I saying true, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Well done. No one, nobody ever gets that right either. So fair play. So normally I introduce people but today I'm just going to list off a couple of the awards that I've seen on your website. So. Trew Surveying wins Best Services Best Services Business at the Best Best New teas Business Awards 2024. Neil was shortlisted shortlisted for the RICS Residential Surveyor of the Year 2024 shortlisted for UK Ricks Award for Outstanding Contribution to Surveying 2024 UK Final Award winner at the Federation of Small Business Awards Northeast FSB Small Business Award winner 2024 Trew Surveying wins Best New Sole Trader for the second consecutive year in 2023. I'm pretty sure I can go further back. Doing all right by the sounds of it. Yeah. So other than, other than all those accolades I've just mentioned, do you want to introduce yourself and maybe go a little bit past the uh, the glamour and glory? Yes, I mean they, they, they're nice, they're nice little touches. I mean that's not. Obviously nobody set up a business with those type of things in mind. That is sort of really. I don't know, they, they're the fun bits, I guess. And sometimes people maybe don't see all the, all the other horrible bits that go on in the background that, that we don't post online about uh, someone having a wind at us or uh, anything like that, do we? Yeah, I mean to, to give you my background, I, I came into surveying quite late in terms of working career. Um, prior to that, I Was a secondary school maths teacher. Won't go into that too much. But I knew after a very short period of time that couldn't be the next 30 years of my working life. So I, I sort of looked at where, where can I when I do something else, how could I escape this? What would interest me? It's always been interested in sort of houses. I've um, I've spent time sort of doing, doing houses up in the past. It was something I had an interest in and I sort of stumbled across the SAA course through a friend of mine. He, he done it sort of prior and he, he told me about it and it sounded like it would tick all my boxes and it would give me a way out of the job I didn't really want into a career. I did. So I, that's what I did. I did saba, qualified through that, left teaching and started my journey as a surveyor. Uh it quite quickly took a downturn no which was a sad time at that at the time but it ends up being the best thing that ever happened. So I worked for a company that they went into liquidation. They left a lot of us unemployed without any sort of warning. Um, I mean I found out I didn't have a job on Monday afternoon uh a month before I was getting married. Didn't really have many options in terms of being unemployed for very long. So I decided well uh, basically decided Trew Surveying should uh, should step up. And I was made on the Monday on Friday we were trading. I did my first surveys on the Friday that week. So four days later I set up Trew Surveying and now it's grown into this multi award winning business which somehow, somehow must have fluked it I guess. But yeah, we're doing okay. No, I say well my first question is normally take us through your journey and what inspired you to start your own business. But uh, it's really the first time I've heard someone say that uh, they weren't necessarily inspired to start their own business. Absolutely not. No. As a result of some unfortunate circumstances. But you would say you, it's probably one of the best things that's happened to you. 100%. I mean I don't think I would have maybe taken that leap. Definitely not as, as soon as I did if I hadn't been pushed. We're all guilty of sometimes just getting comfy aren't we? I suppose. And I was comfortable. I was, I was sort uh of doing well. We're in decent money as surveyors. I wasn't, I wasn't eating out the bins or anything like that. I was, I was pretty happy. But yeah, circumstances sort of presented themselves and it was, yeah I had to, I had to react. It wasn't pre planned. In an ideal world if you know you're starting a business, you would, you would have all sorts going on in the background, wouldn't you? You'd be getting your website built, you, you'd be secretly probably nudging some of your clients and, and say come with m me when I go all, all of that stuff. But I didn't have any of those. Um, I just wasn't afforded the luxury of time unfortunately which it may be. It may be helped because I sometimes written maybe waste a bit of time sweating the small stuff and overthinking. I had to be really sort of tunnel vision decisive. Probably spent about 30 seconds deciding on my business name for example, got company registered that same night. Uh, and then the key was just getting a shell of a shell of a business together, get the insurances in place, get out, earn some money. Once the money came in we'll polish it and we'll make it better. We'll get the website built, we'll, we'll buy better software and that's, that's sort of how I've done. So I've had to, I've had to grow as I go uh. Like when you're a surveyor working for a company as I've worked for a large company and then I've done the self employed thing as well and um, there's certain things that you don't realise is part of the business. So when you're a surveyor sometimes you can work someone, you just have a diary, you're like well I'm going there. That day there that day there that. Day, I complete the survey, I send it off, I do my call, move on. Whereas when you're self employed there's so much more and looking at again going back to the list of accolades that you've, you've won, you're doing something right. So what were the main things that you were. Is there anything that surprised you that you had to do or spend more time on as a sole trader as you know, running your own business? Yeah. Even considered was running a business when you were a surveyor. Yeah, that the way, the way I can definitely uh, account for out my time, my free time is different when I work for somebody else. I would play golf three times a week because I would be finished my jobs out, uh, everything done, admin done and nothing else really. To do some days, if I was on, it could be done by 2 o'clock on the golf course by half past two, whiz around the golf course because nobody's on on a Monday afternoon at half past two, back home at five. That was a lovely life. Since I've started this business in the last three years, I would probably say I've played golf about three or four times in three years where he was playing that many times a week. So that shows my, my sort of free time that I wasn't ready to get. It's, it's all, uh. You're totally right that the surveying bit is. That's our bread and butter. That's what we're, we're initially trained to do. We, we go to our job, we do our job to the best of our ability, we feed all that back to the client and we write them a all singing, all dancing report and we. That would be great if that's where it ended. But yeah, when you, you're now sort of the assault trader, there's lots of other hats you've got to wear, haven't you? You've got to, you've got to sell, you've got to take every call. If anybody wants to book in a survey, they're coming straight through to you. You've then got to do the admin that follows. If they book it in, you're sending out invoices, you're sending terms and conditions. Yeah, then there's the marketing. You've. You've got people going to know where you are and who you are and how to find you. If you, if you don't tell them, nobody else will because you're on your own. Um, then you're an accountant. You, you're running your accounts, aren't you? You're tracking everything. Yeah. Um, you've got to speak to insurers, you've got to find the best deals for your insurance, you've got to remember renewed art, you've got to make sure all your, all your, all your registration stuffs are up to date, all your, all your licences get renewed and it just never ends, does it? You think you get to the bottom of the list and then another four things jump on and yeah, that's the bit that probably other people don't see who haven't done it yet on their own. It's amazing. When I went self employed, I was on. I was, I had no idea how. I was really very aware of every fee I charge, how much I charge, how many I'm doing a week. Like when you're employed, you just, your diaries feel for you. They're just jobs, they're just, I've got two jobs today. That's it. Yeah. And then you might look ahead like a week to see what we're doing next week. But then, um, when you're self employed and you're looking ahead five, six days, you're like, there's nothing in my diary. You're a bit like, especially the very beginning when you don't have, you know. That'S, it's, it's the beginning. So you've got, probably got a bit more of a cushion but you're still, you know, you don't, you don't work from paycheck to paycheck. No. The beginning is really scary, isn't it? I, I can still remember sort of almost feeling like it's life or death when I'm on the phone to that client at the beginning and I'm selling a survey. Uh, you have to say yes. Yeah, I can't. If she, if this lady says no to me, I've lost a job. What will I do? And it, and you think that might be the last one I ever get because you don't know when the phone would stop ringing, do you? Thankfully, I'm through that now and I'm more experienced. I know I've got a steady flow of work. It all, it never goes away, it just never will. But you don't know that at the beginning. You're right, you're totally, totally unknown. Uh, to my next question then. So as a surveyor, how important is business generation for your practise? And um, do you have any strategies that you found most effective in attracting new clients? So you say. I mean I'm, I'm, I'm assuming a lot of it is reputation but then I think there's probably a lot more hard work that goes into it than just having a good rep. Yeah. So I have, it's, it's, it's evolved. It's, it now doesn't look the same as it looked three years ago when I started. So when I first started, I mean I was, I was willing to talk myself out to anyone who would have me effectively. I would do any work that was there. Um, so I would do the panel work, I would do some of the l fee panelled work that now I'm, I'm in a good position that I can, I can turn that away now because I have all my own self generated leads. But at the beginning it was just a great way to, for me, it wasn't necessarily. I, like I said, I didn't have a plan to do this. I never started this business to be super rich or anything like that. It's just my job. So I tried to take myself away from looking at, at the panel fees as like lower, lower fees and begrudging them. Uh, the panel work was another job and it was another opportunity for me to do a good job for a client who could then tell their friends, their family, oh, if you need a surveyor, this guy did hours and he was great. I couldn't recommend him highly enough. So I wasn't bothered about the money at the beginning. I mean that was sort of reflected. I, the first 11 surveys I did, Trew Surveying, um, were free. So I didn't, I didn't charge a penny for them. Um, there's more behind that. So that was basically the, the company I mentioned when they went into liquidation. I'd um, I'd put forward some self generated jobs that they, they paid for their surveys and then the companies wound up. So there's no way they were ever getting their money back. So. But. And their contact is me. Yeah, so they're kind of ringing me and they're upset and I totally got it. And there was. 11 in total. So I kind of had to say, you're not going to get your money back from this company, but unfortunately, um, by all means try your best. But, and even if you do, it will take a long time. It's, it, it's with legal people now that, and, and you're talking sort 4, 500 pounds, which in my area is, is a lot of money to, a lot of money to anybody. But. So I kind of had to make a business decision right from the beginning, which was definitely not the one I wanted to make, but it was the right one to. I mean that there was 11 people plus me who were going to be out of pocket. There was nothing I could do about me being out of pocket, but I could do something about those 11. So I kind of just took. It would be better just one person being completely out of pocket than 12 of us. That's just easy. Math says, that's my maths teacher. I did learn something from school, didn't I? Uh, so I just said, yeah, I kind of just said to these 11 people said look, don't panic, I'm gonna get me get on my feet. It'll uh, take me a week or two, but I will go out and do those surveys for you. I don't want any money for it, but sort of give him a, give him a wink and a nunch nudge. But did say, however, make sure you tell all your friends, your family, your hairdressers, your anything that I um, helped you out and they, they effectively became salesmen for me for the, for the first months that uh, yeah, to hit on, on fees but it was, it was worthwhile doing sort of one good, good deed and it then snowballs and yeah, reputation now has grown and I work hard to build good relationships with estate agents, solicitors, mortgage advisors, vendors. I, I tend to just, I tend to just try and be nice, honest, decent with people and it goes a long way and it sounds dead easy but people respond to that and that's what they like and it builds trust, doesn't it? It's a really unique viewpoint that not a lot of people would have. So in the surveying industry these days, if you ended up suggesting that you were going to end up doing 10, 11 jobs for free because of the reason, I mean the reasons you stated are valid, hugely valid. You know, they're going to be out of pocket, so on and so forth, but if you flip on your head, you're taking on a massive amount of liability with that absolutely zero benefit and. And they're not free either, are they? They also cost me physically. I've got to drive to these jobs, I've got to have my equipment. I've got the insurance cover as well. It's your time as a commodity that you're spending on them. And it's also, like I said, it's the liability on that survey. Because even if you haven't charged them for it, if you made a mistake on a survey, they'd be knocking at your door saying 100% hard. Too right. There would be. Yeah. But you've seen a benefit that not many people with other see is it's an opportunity to build a reputation and help someone out at the same time. And, um. Because you know someone that you've done a genuine favour for or help genuinely. I mean, doing a survey for someone. Yeah, you're helping them out, but effectively, anyone else could help them out. They could go to a plethora of different surveyors. Whereas what you've done is you've done it, no one else. I guarantee you, they could have run 50 other surveyors and at no point would any of them say, oh, yeah, we'll do it pro bono. Yeah. I mean, I effectively cleaned up a mess that wasn't mine to clean. Yeah, that's how I looked at it. But I had a mop in my armoury, so why not? You saw that there could be a benefit to you by doing it as well. Yeah, you taking a big risk because there's no guarantee in it. But ultimately, even if you only got two jobs off the back of that, from those two jobs, you've earned some money and then it's two more opportunities to increase your reputation and. And reputation's a snowball, isn't it? Yeah, both ways, don't get me wrong. But, uh, it starts small, but the more and more people hear about you, good or bad, the more and more that reputation will, uh, Will grow. Yeah, but that's it. I mean, that's. I mean, I think I've been. I discovered I've got a bit of a flair for marketing, but before I knew this stuff like that, what I did in week one, I was actually doing really good market in there. I just didn't know. I just didn't know that was what it was. It was just. But yeah, in terms of marketing myself, that was. That was a great first step. Um, and then as I progressed, I do a bit more traditional ways of marketing. I suppose you would do, but. So talk to me about the traditional ways of marketing that you. What is Your flair. Why would you say you're indifferent or better than other people? Well, there's, there's. So there's things that, um. There's things we could all do that cost us no money and then there's other things that you would need money for and I've sort of dipped into both and I've made some mistakes with them and financial mistakes as well. Uh. No, that's the best money I've ever spent. Have you seen our players that we spent all my money on? They're obviously doing great, aren't they? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I'll get to that one in a minute. But I mean, the, the free ones are, uh, just have a personal brand, so everyone talks about it and it's a bit of a buzzword, isn't it? But it's, it's free to do. So why aren't we all doing it on LinkedIn? Have a bit of a presence. If that's going to be your platform in a, In a professional industry like we operate in, it makes sense to be visible and clients do. Now everyone has. Everyone's got the Internet on the. In the pocket, so people do look into you. If you get recommended to them or they're looking for a survey, it takes them two minutes to know, to know about you. So make sure what they're finding out about you is what you want them to see. So that's what we're doing on LinkedIn on, um, websites. I mean, you mentioned all the award wins there. They're just really nice touches and they're, they're the shiny bits of the job and it's. And it is really good to get recognised when you're working hard. But the, the best bit that they do, which I would implore anyone who has an opportunity to, to go into a local awards thing or anything like that. The benefits you can get from even just being nominated is great because it generates a, uh, newspaper article, uh, even if it's local news that'll come up. When somebody googles you, you'll have your website and they'll say you shortlisted for an award or you've won awards or go the other way. You've been in jail for whatever. You've got to be careful, haven't you? But everything now is, you've got a digital footprint, so wherever you can control the narrative, just do it. Especially if it costs you nothing. That's what I feel with LinkedIn. And then, then I've done things. So when I, I've started doing well, I've I put my money where my mouth is. So, yeah, I sponsored Middles Football Club. That's a bit of fun for me. I've, um, season ticket order since I was 7. Does somebody sit watching the match and sees my little board go past them and suddenly, God, that reminds me, I need a survey. Probably not, but it's all subliminal. If. If people start seeing you enough that people have given confidence in. In, in probably size. So for a sole trader, people look at that and go, he must be doing pretty well. They're a big company. I see them everywhere. I see his car all branded. Seen, uh, him when I played golf. I've, um, seen him at the middles of a match, can't get away from him. And it just. That's your subliminal marketing, isn't it? I guess that there's maybe more powerful than you ever physically see, because you never actually see the money come in from that marketing. Yeah, it's tough, isn't it? And it's like you say, you don't go to the Middlesbrough game, see Trew Surveying and going, I better get survey. You see Trew Surveying and then a week, a month, a year, two years later, you're like, oh, I need to get a survey. Oh, true. I recognise that name. Yeah. Or you just. Yeah, you remember it and stuff like that. So that is. That is an interesting look. So you're going to show us all your. Your Middlesbrough shirts, then? Go on. Oh, I can't show you that. So behind me there, if we can see. So that is the Carlin Cup Winners shirt, the only thing we've ever won, ever. And that's the sign shirt. So that's my pride and joy. And then if we look over my shoulder here. So every season we sponsor Middlesbrough, I get a signed shirt by that team. So I've sponsored them for the last three years, so they've got this. So that. That's nice little touches, aren't there? But it's a nice. It's a nice way to view it again, though, isn't it, because you've managed to mix a passion again. I. I'm probably, you know, forcing the dots together here. But, uh, similarly, you found an opportunity where you can find something that you're quite passionate about and then m. Make something of that. So, you know, you support a club, you say you've been going there since you were seven years old and you've seen an opportunity where you can, you know, in your small way. I don't know anything about football, finances or anything like that uh, but in a small way you're contributing towards a club that you support. But you are obviously sending out marketing materials, subliminal messages or even to the point where LinkedIn content, you know, social media content. You have. Because I've seen pictures of you on the pitch with shirts. Exactly. And I know it and I'm not even looking for a service. Yeah. So it's obviously doing something right. Yeah, I mean I, with, with things like that as well. I, I do, I try and keep my LinkedIn and my social media quite light and there's a reason for that. I think we do a pretty serious job. Um, we can't always be serious all the time. So that. And sort of give a glimmer into Sean again. It's showing people I'm a normal person who has interest the same as, as you would as well. Not, not a scary doom and gloom surveyor. Like we've somehow built this with weird reputation up with. Some people think of you as the grim reaper when you turn up to the house and it. If you can break a few of those walls down and show no. Well, in my spare time I voted a match the same as you or I play golf or uh, or uh, whatever. It just like I say it just strips back a layer a little bit and I do similar stuff. I do dash stuff when I'm on holiday with me branded towel and I've got a little branded flag that I bought that flag for about £10 and it has ended up being the best marketing tool I've ever had. Every event I've ever been to, that flag somehow comes out and it gets held up and. Yes, but again it's. You're right. How can I create some content for social media? You don't have to have video shoots and you don't have to spend hours doing these. Sometimes just a little that picture of something is enough, isn't it? And, and it works. But yeah, I've tried things that didn't work. I've. I got a ginormous sign built and put up on a local driving range that I had a great idea that people go and hit golf balls at my big sign all day and they'll naturally see my sign because they're hitting the ball at it. It's got to stay in the brain. That was great. But it ended up being really expensive and survived about a month so. So there you go. So you win some, you lose some. So I'm not going to say everything I do is, is bob on or anything like that, but I'll have a go. And I don't sort of regret having a go at that was a good idea. It's just the next time just buy a scrap car from a scrap yard and spray Trew Surveying onto the side. Don't give me crazy ideas like that because they turn into reality very swiftly in my world. Um, but yeah, that's not the worst idea I've ever heard myself. But it's interesting though, because marketing is evolving and my next question is a little bit more about the evolution of marketing and technology and stuff. But marketing these days, it's not. Is changing because of the different social media side of things. Your LinkedIn's, your Instagrams, it's all about the content, isn't it? And it doesn't have to be a video of, oh, here's a defect, look, I saw this. I mean it's sometimes good to have that if, you know, you want to have that kind of, um, you want to resonate with people showing your competencies, stuff like, uh, that. And it's the same as having all your letters after your name. You know, you want to demonstrate your qualifications, you want to be able to show competencies. But also there is, there's a lot to be said about just getting your name out there. So like you said, standing there with a flag, having a photo or a video, uh, of you, you know, in the middle of the football ground. It's all content that just gives you an opportunity to post something that someone will see and they will remember it for if and when they think they need a survey. That. That's it. That's all it is, isn't it really? It's um, yeah, it inspires confidence with the public, which is the game, isn't it, at the end of the day? And then they can check your competency. We've all got Google reviews and things like that. There's over 200 five star Google reviews. If they want to go and read about what I do at work, how good I am at work, that's all there in that sense. It doesn't always need to be all work equally. It shouldn't always all be. Um, all messing about. I suppose it's. I would always say just, just do you. So if you're funny, be funny. If you're not, don't try because people spot that a million miles off. If you're serious. Yeah, if, if you're serious, be serious. And that's another sort of likeable trait. I just, there's people I follow on LinkedIn, I'll. I love their post because I learn, yeah. Reading their stuff and I think I don't know what I'd save me learning going and finding it out. I'll watch your pause because you probably tell me stuff before I even need to know it and they're great. Do that. If that's your thing and, and you like to sort of teach and educate, go down that lane. It's all everyone, everyone has a place and we're all, we're all welcome whichever way we want to go, aren't we? It's um. But yeah, that, that's how I would use, use social media. I just think it's useful and let people see a little bit that, that they wouldn't normally see in here and just build small trust, I think. Yeah, we're all just people. We just do a job, don't we, at the end of the day. No, I, Like I said, I. Generally it's a quite, it is quite a unique post. Uh, a unique view on it, particularly within this particular industry. Uh, don't get me wrong, there's loads of other industries that ah, are very much, you know, the, the fitness industry is very much like that these days. You get all these people vlog, vlogging. Yeah. Blog all about this and this and this and they're doing it in a much more informal, funny, funny kind of way. And there's some profalities and stuff but people can kind of resonate with it. But you couldn't really get away with that. Uh, we've, we've got to tread on a careful line, aren't we? We are still professionals. Professionals. You wouldn't want your solicitor messing about, I suppose on. So you, you've got to get a balance. You have. I mean I've, I mean when I started I was doing all my own marketing and I look back now at it and some of it's a bit, a bit rough really. Um, now, now I've had a little bit more money. I pay a marketing company, they help me. So I've got a local company that help with that. Uh, and they've just made me look a lot more polished and they give me fresh ideas and I can bounce ideas off them and it, sometimes you need, need help and again knowing when to delegate is, that's probably the hardest thing when you're a self employed person to learn because you've got to part with money in order to give other people over roles but you, you've got. To trust them, you've got to put. Yeah, you've got to trust them because it's your business, your baby, isn't it? And if somebody goes and ruins all that and ruins three, three years worth of work in three minutes, it's, yeah, he's going to be six a chip but that, that's, that's how you've got to do it. It's sometimes you've got to sort of, I don't know, loosen the shackles a little bit and, and give a little bit away and, and you realise there's, there's people sometimes who can help you and use them if you can. I mean I, I'm trying to get better at that. I'm not, I haven't mastered it but I, I do know I need to uh. It's, it's a, it's, you've got to balance up time versus money, haven't you? Is it great earning loads of money if you never have any time to do anything with it? No. What's the point? So you've just got to somehow get it where everybody's happy and get your time back and that's, that's going to be key for me in the next two years I think. So final question for you then. Looking ahead, how do you see technology and online marketing evolving for surveyors and what changes are you planning to implement to stay ahead? So we've obviously talked about your social media side of things and stuff but do you think there's, this is mainly focused around just the kind of promotion and marketing and business generation side of things. Where do you see yourself now? Where do you see it kind of going and are you planning for the future? I've always got one eye on it. I'm um, still old school in the sense that I've been brought up to, to know that people buy from people, always have done and I still think they always will. Um, I have noticed however, there's been an increase in, in terms of my website. If somebody put an inquiry through on my website about a job I always then phone that person even though they've emailed because I want to uh, build a, build a relationship immediately. I want to have a chat with Them and, and it's, I've definitely noticed probably in the last year or so how many people don't take the call. So if they don't answer my call, I then will reply to their email saying I've just tried to ring you but yep, here's that quote you've asked for. There's definitely an increase of how many people just then reply you within a minute and go yep, that's great. Can we book it in? And I think, wow, you're ready to part with, with a lot of money and you're not even gonna speak to a human. Yeah. So, and see we, we're all becoming, Is it a laziness? Is it an awkwardness? Do we, are we all just so busy we don't have time to chat anymore? Um, that then's gonna, if that becomes the easy way of booking jobs in then AI is going to become really crucial. You can get you, you'll be able to come up with systems that effectively just do all your buttons for you. Um, that'll be something I'll keep an eye on. Again, I'm not, I'm not going to resist it. If there's something that does come into to the game that makes my life easier, I'll, I'll get on board. It's, I still think the majority of my business comes from relationships with human interaction relationships. And I hope it stays that way. But I, I don't know. I mean that there are going to be changes, aren't there? And we're all going to have to get on board. I, I, I think our job, our job is fortunate that I don't think a robot can ever do it. It's about being a human. It's about being a physical presence. It's about then being able to react to certain things on site that you couldn't have predicted then having that chat with somebody as a human. A human. Yeah. Sometimes you've got to use empathy. In our job that's a bit we didn't get towards, did we? We've got to be to be counsellors. We've got to. Sometimes we deliver bad news and, and we will have all done it. I mean I've had people cry. I never ended the phone. Because their dream house is not a dream house. It's got a chimney that's about a collapse and, and it's, yeah, uh, there's things like that or it's got spray form in it and yeah. That we, we sadly do deliver bad news a lot and it's doing that in a sensitive way that, like I say, keep keeps that client on board. And yeah, I don't think a robot or an email can ever do that, can it? And no, exactly. I mean, I always have at least one opportunity to plug Scafol into any podcast. And it, but it's, it's kind of a poignant point where we, we have this kind of automated quoting system so someone can go onto your website, they put in a little bit of detail, and because there's a fee or whatever your fee scale is or whatever you charge, they would get an automated quote. But then, uh, you know how that company uses that. So I, I had it when I was employed because I wanted to not miss out on a quote. Some people these days, because of technology, people want an answer, uh, there and now. And if they want to go on a website, they don't want an inquiry and then have to wait a couple of hours because they could call up some of the bigger firms that, uh, have got admin teams that will answer the phone. Or if I'm hanging out at a loft and someone wants a quote. Yeah, yeah, answer, but have that ability. But then if I, if they get that quote, as soon as I know on Scafol, we just tell you, you know, someone's got this quote, this is what they said, but they've got their number. So then you call them similar to you, you, then you get that kind of interaction with them and you can continue, you can build that, uh, that trust and that empathy, or not empathy, but you can build that, uh, kind of client business relationship. You start building confidence with them. And it's. I always say I'm, I'm not the best salesman at all. I haven't got a silky smooth, uh, posh English accent or anything like that. I'm not gonna, I'm, I'm, I couldn't just cold call people. I wouldn't be very good at that at all. But in terms of a salesman for Trew Surveying, there would never ever be anybody better. Um, and when anyone has any queries or what does a survey involve? Would you look at this? Would you look at that? I can answer them yes or no. Whether it's what they want to hear or not, it doesn't matter, but I can and tell them exactly what will happen, at what time, what they will get, what they won't get. And, um, I would say nine times out of 10, a phone call of a client ends up in a booking for me. Yeah. Whereas emails might be looking at 50, 50. So there's still a higher conversion rate when you can actually get, get through to somebody and, and talk to them. You're basically just saying you don't need to go anywhere else, I'm your guy, I will look after you. And as long as you can convince them of that, they'll go, great, you'll do for me. And that's that. Like I said, that will always work. But there is now definitely a, an opportunity for just instant, instant quotes that people just want, everyone wants stuff yesterday, don't there? And then you get that balance like you say, don't you? So they get the information they want but then you know they've got the information and then you can follow up with that, that conversion because getting the, getting the quote to them on time is one thing but you have the opportunity to follow up with it because like you said, you not been able to uh, say you, you can't be as a surveyor being sole trader or work of yourself. You can't be available on that phone 100 of the time anymore because like you said, you might be going, you might be flying a drone and your phone's the screen or you might have your phone on a two metre camera. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, bringing it down. So you get some days where you're just on the phone and while you're on the phone you've missed two other calls come through and you can't answer free at once. And it's, yeah, there is, it's uh, it is what it is. I think we all just have to just do our best. That's how I, I've done, I've tried my best and do as good a job as I can for people and it, and it gets rewarded. I think if we all just be decent and put yourself out there, do as honest and as, as good a job as you're capable of. And I just think, do what you say you'll do. If you say to somebody after the survey, I'll give you a call afterwards, I'll let you know if there's any issues. Do it. Don't we all do. Sometimes we think I can't be bothered ringing them, I don't really want to, I'll just send the report over and read it themselves. That's fine if that's what you said you would do. But dawn, if you said I will call you, ring them afterwards, just, just do all your steps and that's all anyone ever asked for. Just deliver uh, on what you say you'll do. You don't have to Say I will ring you the second after I've finished that job. Keep it, babe. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I just think that works. It works for me anyway, I'm doing all right, so. Well, you said. I, uh, uh, clearly you are because I, you've got a great reputation. It's know I know you and I couldn't live any further away. You couldn't. No, you're right. This is really the first time we've had a face to face and I've just listed off all your awards and stuff and they. Yes, and awards and award. But they, they do have a fair reflection on not just the company but the person as well. So whatever you're doing is clearly working and you know, fair play. I think in terms of the podcast, I think there's some really insightful information in there to. Crikey, uh, a plethora of people, whether you're a, uh, one man band or a small independent. But even the larger companies, you know, they can take a view on what they're doing with their marketing and how, how the opposition are doing it really and why are they losing business to the likes of Trew Surveying. And I know it's obviously not ideal for you that you've given that advice, but then it was going to take, you know, a long time to build a reputation up to um, back up these stuff. So. Really insightful, mate. And um, yeah, generally really, uh, pleased that you were willing to do a podcast with me. So, um, no, no, thanks for having me. It's uh, I need to do more of these. So you've taken my one of your own, mate. You've said my podcast virginity so I won't compete you with that. You can have the podcast. I say you're only episode 10, so I would say I'm a master of podcast, but I have got a mic so it looks like I know what I'm doing exactly. I know I should have put some headphones on. Shouldn't I often see these people headphones, I think. Oh, you just. I can't wear headphones. I've got a really small head and when I put normal headphones on it makes my head emphasises the size. Right, okay. But yeah, well, no thanks, thanks once again. Um, it's very much appreciated. Um, and I, like I said I think there's some content in there that uh, people, surveyors and stuff like that, that listen will actually find really insightful and really useful. So thank you again. Yeah, thank you.