How Surveyors Can Adapt to the Changing Property Market

Hello and um, welcome to episode nine of the Scaffold Survey Solutions podcast. Today I'm very lucky to be joined by. Is it Zoe or Zoe, what do you prefer? Zoe, Zoe's fine Well, no, no, no, I, I, um, I had Will slash Bill Holden on. It's always important to get people's names right. I think that's the, uh, the basics of a podcast. Um, so Zoe's a residential surveyor accredited by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. Um, Zoe launched your surveyors aged 28 in 2020. I'm not gonna. People are gonna figure out how old you are now off the back of that. So apologies, um, but that was during the pandemic and went on to win the Rick's Young Surveyor of the year award in 2022. Uh, correct. You're the co author of the book the 5 Billion Home Buyer Secret Guide. Uh, bound. I forgot the word pound. Sorry. Um, which busts numerous myths and guides, um, for people on how to buy properties the right way. Is that correct? I haven't read it. I actually it's on my Things of Risk. Things to read now though, uh, having read the synopsis and the kind of back of it, um, you've been recognised in the property industry for your unique journey from being a hairdresser at the age of 15 to a qualified surveyor. And you have your own business which is renowned for five star reviews. Um, obviously I've done a little bit of research on you. Um, but is there anything you want to add? Because like I've, I've said previously, you know, you can't necessarily get the picture of someone just by what you find on the Internet. Yeah, absolutely. So a, um, couple of things. Last year I won Property Week Trailblazer of the Year, um, award and also the business won two business awards. Um, just off, off the back of how we' been developing as a company and brand over the last couple of years and, and the projects that we've been working on to um, better our service to, to home buyers. So yeah, that's the only bit I would add, but you did very well, so thank you. Internet serves a purpose. Um, so today we're going to be talking about talking around the evolving home buying process and in a nutshell, how surveyors can adapt to that process to kind of help themselves and their clients. Um, I'll kick off with a real basic question. How have you seen the home buyers process evolve over the last few years and what changes do you think are here to stay because Obviously there's lots of things that change and then don't stick around and disappear. I think one of the major changes I've been in the industry 10 years now, um, just over 10 years and M. One of the main changes in that time working for companies previous to having my own has been the increase in AVMs and desktop valuations for mortgage valuations. So that for me has been the biggest change. I think um, I remember on, I think it was the 1st of April 2016 there was a ah, change in the buy to let stamp duty and I think uh, buy to let investors had to put an extra 3% stamp duty and I kid you not, overnight it was like the tap had been turned off with lender valuations and I was working for a company at the time who was on the panels of all these various lenders and panels and um, I just saw how impactful that change was to a business. Um, so I think that that's here to stay. I don't think that's going to go back because the lenders are enjoying how huh, quick they can their transactions and, and lend more money to get more interest back. Um, so I think that's going to change. It will only evolve as, as the years go on. But, but what I think is the, the biggest shift is the importance of a ah, survey. So a home survey surveyor actually going to the property and assessing the, the condition for the buyer, that will only become more important. It already has become more important. Um, but the survey, you know, as surveyors we've got to be out there talking about the importance of that. Absolutely. Uh, with the avi. I mean av. I have a little bit of a. Well, I'm trying to line up another podcast with a gentleman about that because it doesn't sit right with me. You know, when you're putting a value in a property, I think there's so many variables. Whenever I do evaluation, my rationale is like five paragraphs as to why I've come to that valuation based on these comparable evidences and stuff and the differences and what I've taken into account. So to have that kind of. You won't find a lot of the detail. You see a little detail in the inspection as opposed to the details in its history. So I think that might be a uh, another conversation for another time. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean I've had a couple of experiences myself going to do a survey for my clients and turning up and there's substantial issues subsidence and quite obvious and um, they'd had an AVM and their mortgage had been approved. So if they had not had a survey, which is completely optional, which is bonkers, um, they wouldn't have been able to. Well, they would have got insured, but they wouldn't have been able to claim on the insurance because it was a pre existing problem. Um, so people are getting into very risky situations if they don't have a survey. Needs to be nicely onto my next question. So surveyors have always played a key role in protecting home buyers. It's effectively, uh, our job. Um, but with new technologies and methods emerging, how do you think surveyors can innovate to stay ahead of the curve? Obviously, I know a little bit about this because not just the company that I, I run in regards to Scaffold and what it does for surveyors, but how, how do you see, how do you see that side of things? It's always been the surveyor, the report. Okay. Now it's very much the surveyor, the service, the report. And then the technology enhances that process. So surveyors need to be aware of what technology is available out there and make sure that the technology doesn't cut corners. It enhances your, your service offering and it improves your reporting and it improves your service service delivery. So I think that we are going to see a lot of changes over, over the next few years. I mean, technology is going so fast, it's very, very difficult to, uh, to keep up with what's going on. Teams call not being able to and having to jump onto zoom about. Not that that ever happens to me. Well, that's exactly it. Updates happening and you know, trying to keep on top of how, how many options there are out there for surveyors and, and what, what, you know, equipment should we be using and, and is the equipment actually benefiting the service or is it making our inspection time longer or is it making our report writing longer? Ultimately, the more you do something, it's like learning to walk, Right? At first you're really slow and then as you start to walk more, walk more, you get quicker and then eventually you're running. Yeah. And that's exactly the same in, in your craft and what you do. You know, there's a misconception that, uh, if you have to spend as long as a property, a long, long, long, long time at a property to do a good job as a good surveyor. And that is completely not the case. You know, you can be a good, good surveyor and be at a property for two hours and you can be a good survey and be at the property six hours and the Outcome is exactly the same. One's more efficient than the other, uh, and uses technology to enhance that process. And ultimately the person doing m it quicker is going to win more business because the client wants it quicker. In a world where they want things yesterday, that's the way it's got to go. So it's very much going to be the surveyor, the service. The surveyor is going to become more customer focused, even more so. I mean I remember years ago you'd never really speak to your client. You'd be sitting, you know, surveyors would be sitting behind a desk and the lender would send the job in and you'd never speak to anyone. Whereas now it's very, very much becoming more customer focused and service driven. And I think that's where surveyors have to develop their skills because they've learned how to be a surveyor, but uh, they've not learned how to be a customer service, you know, administrator for example. And a lot of my past experience as a hairdresser and then going into offices for surveying companies and working in customer service operations and sales, I already had that skill set there. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, shameless plug here, scaffold. Obviously it's, I'm not trying to sell it in any way but effectively that was developed off the basis of everything you've just said. It was all about efficiency. So in a nutshell, time is a commodity that you only have a certain amount of hours in a day and you need to, you know, with comparison sites and this and whatever, driving some prices down on surveys now. And it not necessarily being the, the um, it used to charge an X amount, a certain amount for it. And um, that's what it's worth because that's what your time's worth. And you have certain amount you have to do and so on and so forth. Um, but with the price coming down, obviously the. The time you have to do stuff, the more pressure to do more. So the, the benefit of something like, you know, the technologies using Scaffolds example, obviously we've developed that to create a framework to speed people's processes up, not to change how they do their inspection. That's the most important part of a survey. If you have a routine in which you complete that inspection whilst you're at the property, that needs to stay the same because that's how you've learned to do your trade. That's not, that's a competency, all falls into that category as well. But it's what you do around the admin side of things, how you write the report, when you write the report, how you generate a terms of engagement, all these administrative details that if they're not streamlined, take ages. Um, yeah, you know, the whole point of technology is taking something. So for example, Scaffold will take something that takes an hour and it will make you do it in 10 minutes. So you say 50 minutes, then 50 minutes you can have a really in depth post inspection phone call with a client and go over, you know, the intricacies of that survey, what you found, so on, so forth. I say that a lot by the way, so on, so forth. Sorry, uh, but you can go through all that and then you've given that extra layer. Whereas if you've got, um, you know, service level agreements to deliver that survey next day. But then also you need to do two surveys a day or seven valuations a day, all of a sudden your time's gone before you've even considered picking up the phone. And then if you're running your own business, that's taken away all the other bits like your business generation and sitting on really boring podcasts of random people that message you on LinkedIn. So, you know, time is a commodity. And I think you talk about AI and all this and there's a whole conversation and loads of podcasts on the Scaffold website about it. But the whole point is just to save time. And then as a surveyor you have a better work life balance or you have more time to deliver that client side of things. That's my viewpoint anyway. Sorry, well off the monologue then. That's all right. Completely, completely agree. Um, and that, that's basically been what I've developed over the years with, with my own business and um, processes. I mean, you know, when I was in, in the operations side of, of other surveying businesses working with Quest and clunky different systems that didn't interact with each Other, um, I thought, where's the solution here to the operational side of running a surveying business? And, and then it stretched onto the, the report writing side. And um. And actually if, if you're. I remember about 10 years ago and 20 years ago surveyors were baulking at the idea of a standard clause. Now everybody's using standard clauses. And, and I remember comments such as you're lazy if you use a standard clause. Well, actually you're opening yourself up to litigation if you don't standardise your wording. And also you're working inefficiently and inconsistently because how can you remember, uh, what you said in another report and put that into the next one if you haven't standardised your wording? And if you standardise as much as possible when you get to the property and you find the problems, you can particularise and make it, you know, fit that individual property and you're fully focused on the issues that you've identified and reporting them in the right way. Yeah. I think also one of the biggest, uh, innovations is being able to write the report whilst on site. Obviously that's not completing it, but it's that uh, you don't have to remember you're physically doing it whilst you see something, you know, you see some non safety glass in the kitchen, you just, you're noting it down, you're not scribbling it, uh, allegedly on a, on a wet piece of paper because it's been raining. Yeah, his reigns. But, but I think that that's the kind of the next. One of the most in innovative processes. I think. I've always written my reports on site, Rodri. I've never not. And, and I have conversations with many surveyors about this who, who can't understand how I do it. But quite frankly I'm going to be putting in my notes the walls are constructed of cavity construction and then I'm going to be putting in the report the walls are constructed of cavity construction. So why am I going to double my process? Put it in the report? Yeah, I think when it, you don't. You don't, you don't have problems if all your information is in the report. You have problems if it's in your notes and um, not in your reports. Yeah. Right. So it's very much a case of forget that and focus on um, what, you know, what's going out to the client at all times. Yeah. One of the main driving, um, developments behind Scaffold was if you've duplicated something, you're doing it Wrong. So you should only ever have to write something once, whether that's your name, your company, the client's name. Like if you're writing that when you're setting the job up, you should never have to write it again. And it goes all the way through the process. So minimise duplication means you save in time massively. Uh, let's move on to the professional negotiation certificate. So, you know, I think we've talked about the kind of innovation and that side of things, but talk to me more about this and negotiation, um, skills in today's market. So we developed this product about two years ago. We spent about six months doing a bit of market research with our clients, the home buyers, you know, which is our perfect audience and, uh, the perfect target market for us. And every time we did a survey, we would, we always follow up with a, uh, post. We have unlimited post survey support for our clients. So with many, many, many conversations about the results that come out of a survey report, how much things are probably going to cost. And obviously we're not there to give quotes. We're not contractors, everybody knows that. But we can give a, an idea on, on how much we think it's going to cost. And there's, you know, various sources that we use for that. But ultimately we would have the conversation and then, bye, and they're off. And then I thought actually that's when they need us the most. And actually it was me and my co director, Garrett, and, um, put our heads together. It was actually probably following us, writing the book. Ah, because a lot of the pitfalls of buying property and how to buy property the right way are in the book. And we come out of it and we said, well, how can we solve this problem? Um, and that's when we developed the professional negotiation certificate. So ultimately it takes issues that we've identified with a property that warrant negotiation. It's not a dated kitchen, dated bathroom. That's very obvious. And an agent would have marketed it with that, uh, knowledge. But it's the issues that we, as only surveyors that are professionally, you know, qualified to assess buildings in that way are able to determine. So it's things like new roof, damp, contingency for concealed decay, rot, that's that type of thing. And we list those repairs in a certificate and we ourselves apply a negotiation point for each element, which would then eventually end up with, uh, a range. So you end up with. We recommend you negotiate between this figure, uh, and this figure based on the average of how much those repairs would cost. And it will take things into consideration, such as disruption materials, labour, you know, that sort of thing. And, um, it won't show the client individual cost because we're not there to quote. It's very obvious from our terms and, um, within the preamble text, within the certificate, uh, that it is a negotiation suggestion, it is not quotes and it very much explains they should still get quotes if they. If they want to get a more accurate idea on costs. But what it's doing is speeding up the transaction process because once somebody's got a survey report and they say, oh, and you say, oh, you've got to go and get quotes. Now, that can take weeks. I've. Uh-huh. Heard of roofers charging to come out and give a quote. I've heard people say they can't come out for eight weeks. Right. So this is, this is, this is why most of the time the transaction times are taking as long as they take. So we've eliminated that time problem and they're able to present this certificate to the estate agent and to the vendor and say, you know, we put our offer in on the property before we knew the full condition. Now we are in the knowledge of its full condition. We would like to negotiate and attach the negotiation certificate. And quite frankly, you know, buyers get asked, uh, all the time to share their reports with the estate agent. And unfortunately, one, that's a conflict of interest, Two, it can be used fraudulently because I've seen situations where vendors have been hidden and masked problems to hide them from future surveyors and future purchasers. So. So it completely eliminates that side of things and it gives the agent the proof that they need to be able to say and, and do what they're great at, which is negotiate and get the two parties together and say, do you know what, I've got this document here. Let's, let's work together and let's find a happy medium. And you know my argument always is why should a buyer huh be financially impacted on. Because somebody hasn't maintained their property. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean you hit on a. I like, I really like it because you hit on a point that is very close to my heart. But I'm very um, passionate about is as a surveyor you sometimes have this. You can get a reputation quite easily as Dr. Death or someone that's just going out there to collapse a sale. But like it's never the case. As a surveyor you're. The client wants to buy the house. The client has just paid you X amount to commit to the house. But they just want to know. So your job is not to rip that house apart and say oh, don't buy that. Your job is to kind of work with them to make sure they can buy their dream house. But they're going into their eyes wide open knowing what they've got to do but also give them the ability to possibly like you've said, renegotiate the price fairly and um, with substantial evidence backing up in this case so that not only they can buy the house but they do actually have the funds and means necessary thereafter was to complete the work. Um, and also doing it in a time efficient manner. Because you talk about the day, the day the world we live in these days is everything needs to be done by yesterday. Um, so you tick several boxes there and it's really unique way of looking at it. And I've never, you know, I always spend a lot of time on my post inspection calls going into that kind of detail. Um, you know, working on saying like it says this but you don't worry, it's like they'll see a red A condition read a condition rating three. Which understandably, um, but it's having that conversation, that's where I focus most of my efforts sometimes is to ensure that I'm working to make this transaction happen but with the best interest of my clients at the absolute forefront of everything I'm doing. Which is very much what you're doing, just in a better way. No, no, absolutely spot on. Um, what we've done is we've taken that feeling of wanting to do that. And we've materialised it. We've created something that allows surveyors, uh, you know, to provide that support, to provide that ongoing service. Because, you know, at the end of the day, home buyers buy property on average every 10 years. They're negotiating against an agent who does it every single day. They're negotiating against somebody who's there to work on the opposite side of the transaction and is there to ultimately get the worst deal for. For the buyer. And I don't begrudge them for doing that. That's. That's their job. Who's there for the buyer? Uh, you know, and that's where we, as professional surveyors, the only ones that are qualified to assess buildings in the way that we do, need to step up and remind people why we are such an integral part of the process and why actually people need to have the survey done straight away. Yeah. At the beginning. That way, you know, there's no point m. Thinking about it three months into the, into the transaction process, often I've turned up to properties and people say, oh, meant to be exchanging next week. You know, people need to be encouraged to do it much earlier. And ultimately it will all come out in the open earlier and people will reach that negotiation position much earlier in the process. Everybody's, you know, aware of where they are and what they need to do. And, um, it's a much more effective way of working, um, what we have experienced. And it's still. It's something that really, really gets. Gets on my nerves. It's the amount of surveyors that are, uh, scared to upset agents. They're scared to upset agents and they're scared, uh, to not receive referrals from them on the back of survey reports or providing a negotiation. Because, you know, part of what we're doing is we are going to be licencing the professional negotiation certificate out to other surveyors so that they can also provide this service. Because this is something that is needed on a national level. Right. We've created it, we are the creators. It's trademarks and copyright protected, you know, but we want this to be able to be available to people nationally. Um, but the amount of conversations that we've had and the amount of surveyors that are scared to introduce something that is so powerful. And ultimately, this is why I won a Trailblazer Award. Right? Because this is a Trailblazer, uh, product. This, this is a. This is changing how, how it works and something has needed to be improved. And you can have many conversations of, oh, this needs improving. And, oh yeah, it's bad, isn't it? And, oh, actually it's the action. It's taking action. And if you don't take the action, it never going to change. And you know, you think of any change, you're never going to please everybody. There's always going to be someone that disagrees with what you're doing or is as uncomfortable with it. And once you've got through that process, and I've had so many conversations with people about this and once you've explained it in the way that I have to you just now, most people, it's like a light bulb moment and they go, do you know what? Even loads of agents that I've won over speaking to about it and, and they go, oh, you know what, that's actually brilliant. Yeah. You know, I think it's a really. Good tool to, you know, quite. You do, you do need agents. They should be recommending surveys. Um, I've been a sales agent myself in a former life and I think it's. It should be part of the process. But you say get it in the beginning, but they should, if they, if they're positive, they should see this in a way of making sure that house sale continues. So, you know, without. This is a method to, to build the bridges between what a normal client might think, actually, well, now I shouldn't buy this house. And then you're saying, actually, well, you should. Um, and then it could be used as a tool to actually make that process go through. Yes, I know they get paid commissions and I know if there's a renegotiation, their commission's affected. I'm not naive in that regard. But ultimately, um, 2% of nothing is nothing. So if that sale falls through, they lose everything. So absolutely it's a tool for them to enable that kind of sales process to go through if substantial defects have been noted and go through quicker. Exactly. Which means they can then spend time selling another property. It's all about efficiency. Yeah. You may take, you know, like you say, you might take a slight reduction on a sale, but that's move on to the, move on to the next one, getting offers in on other properties and, you know, and as I say, it's all about efficiency and making that, uh, quicker. And if you can speed up the home buying process, you can sell more property as an agent. Yeah, no, definitely. Well, this, um, professional negotiation certificate seems like something I need to integrate to scaffold. Just saying. We'll have a chat about that. Yeah, we will. No, um, I did have A couple of other questions, but being quite honest, you pretty much covered them all in, um, in that. So, um. Yeah, you've ruined my question notes. Uh, no, I'll say it's a good way to finish it off though, because, you know, we've talked about how the, the kind of process is evolving from the side of Zafaya and, you know, the innovation, how innovation and technology helps. Uh, but then also we've discussed a bit from, you know, a different point in regards to. It's not all about focusing the attention, the quality and competencies of the actual survey. Super important, the most important thing, don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning that, but it's viewing it from a different point of view where you're actually looking at what is, what is best for your clients outside of the home survey standards, which, you know, there are rules, there are guidelines, there are legislation, they are the rule book. But what will set you apart as a surveyor, uh, and make you successful compared to the other surveyor down the road who's offering the same service? And, uh, it's a really interesting point. It's not something I've actually really talked to anyone about. I've got my own thoughts and stuff on it, obviously having run my own business. Um, but it's really amazing to hear it from a different point of view and, um, from a point of view where you've identified a massive, massive issue and you've addressed it and you formalised it, um, and you've made it something that other people can actually use and, um, you know, learn from as well, which I think is absolutely amazing. So, yeah, fair play to you. Thank you. Thank. Couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you very much. Well, I say, um, thank you so much for joining me on the, uh, on the podcast. And, um, yeah, I'll hopefully might have to get you on again at some time because I'm sure you're trailblazed and think of another innovative idea at some point, which I'm definitely gonna want to be involved in. So, uh, thank you so much. Any closing. Any closing comments from you? No, no, I've, I've said everything that I, uh, that I want to say, but thank you very much for having me, and having me, you know, share this information on, on your podcast. It's, it's really important that we, we get this message out to, uh, as many people as possible. So I really appreciate you having me on. No, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. And, uh, yeah, hopefully we'll catch up again soon. Thank you, Rhodri. Well, no, no, no, I, I, um, I had Will slash Bill Holden on. It's always important to get people's names right. I think that's the, uh, the basics of a podcast. Um, so Zoe's a residential surveyor accredited by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. Um, Zoe launched your surveyors aged 28 in 2020. I'm not gonna. People are gonna figure out how old you are now off the back of that. So apologies, um, but that was during the pandemic and went on to win the Rick's Young Surveyor of the year award in 2022. Uh, correct. You're the co author of the book the 5 Billion Home Buyer Secret Guide. Uh, bound. I forgot the word pound. Sorry. Um, which busts numerous myths and guides, um, for people on how to buy properties the right way. Is that correct? I haven't read it. I actually it's on my Things of Risk. Things to read now though, uh, having read the synopsis and the kind of back of it, um, you've been recognised in the property industry for your unique journey from being a hairdresser at the age of 15 to a qualified surveyor. And you have your own business which is renowned for five star reviews. Um, obviously I've done a little bit of research on you. Um, but is there anything you want to add? Because like I've, I've said previously, you know, you can't necessarily get the picture of someone just by what you find on the Internet. Yeah, absolutely. So a, um, couple of things. Last year I won Property Week Trailblazer of the Year, um, award and also the business won two business awards. Um, just off, off the back of how we' been developing as a company and brand over the last couple of years and, and the projects that we've been working on to um, better our service to, to home buyers. So yeah, that's the only bit I would add, but you did very well, so thank you. Internet serves a purpose. Um, so today we're going to be talking about talking around the evolving home buying process and in a nutshell, how surveyors can adapt to that process to kind of help themselves and their clients. Um, I'll kick off with a real basic question. How have you seen the home buyers process evolve over the last few years and what changes do you think are here to stay because Obviously there's lots of things that change and then don't stick around and disappear. I think one of the major changes I've been in the industry 10 years now, um, just over 10 years and M. One of the main changes in that time working for companies previous to having my own has been the increase in AVMs and desktop valuations for mortgage valuations. So that for me has been the biggest change. I think um, I remember on, I think it was the 1st of April 2016 there was a ah, change in the buy to let stamp duty and I think uh, buy to let investors had to put an extra 3% stamp duty and I kid you not, overnight it was like the tap had been turned off with lender valuations and I was working for a company at the time who was on the panels of all these various lenders and panels and um, I just saw how impactful that change was to a business. Um, so I think that that's here to stay. I don't think that's going to go back because the lenders are enjoying how huh, quick they can their transactions and, and lend more money to get more interest back. Um, so I think that's going to change. It will only evolve as, as the years go on. But, but what I think is the, the biggest shift is the importance of a ah, survey. So a home survey surveyor actually going to the property and assessing the, the condition for the buyer, that will only become more important. It already has become more important. Um, but the survey, you know, as surveyors we've got to be out there talking about the importance of that. Absolutely. Uh, with the avi. I mean av. I have a little bit of a. Well, I'm trying to line up another podcast with a gentleman about that because it doesn't sit right with me. You know, when you're putting a value in a property, I think there's so many variables. Whenever I do evaluation, my rationale is like five paragraphs as to why I've come to that valuation based on these comparable evidences and stuff and the differences and what I've taken into account. So to have that kind of. You won't find a lot of the detail. You see a little detail in the inspection as opposed to the details in its history. So I think that might be a uh, another conversation for another time. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean I've had a couple of experiences myself going to do a survey for my clients and turning up and there's substantial issues subsidence and quite obvious and um, they'd had an AVM and their mortgage had been approved. So if they had not had a survey, which is completely optional, which is bonkers, um, they wouldn't have been able to. Well, they would have got insured, but they wouldn't have been able to claim on the insurance because it was a pre existing problem. Um, so people are getting into very risky situations if they don't have a survey. Needs to be nicely onto my next question. So surveyors have always played a key role in protecting home buyers. It's effectively, uh, our job. Um, but with new technologies and methods emerging, how do you think surveyors can innovate to stay ahead of the curve? Obviously, I know a little bit about this because not just the company that I, I run in regards to Scaffold and what it does for surveyors, but how, how do you see, how do you see that side of things? It's always been the surveyor, the report. Okay. Now it's very much the surveyor, the service, the report. And then the technology enhances that process. So surveyors need to be aware of what technology is available out there and make sure that the technology doesn't cut corners. It enhances your, your service offering and it improves your reporting and it improves your service service delivery. So I think that we are going to see a lot of changes over, over the next few years. I mean, technology is going so fast, it's very, very difficult to, uh, to keep up with what's going on. Teams call not being able to and having to jump onto zoom about. Not that that ever happens to me. Well, that's exactly it. Updates happening and you know, trying to keep on top of how, how many options there are out there for surveyors and, and what, what, you know, equipment should we be using and, and is the equipment actually benefiting the service or is it making our inspection time longer or is it making our report writing longer? Ultimately, the more you do something, it's like learning to walk, Right? At first you're really slow and then as you start to walk more, walk more, you get quicker and then eventually you're running. Yeah. And that's exactly the same in, in your craft and what you do. You know, there's a misconception that, uh, if you have to spend as long as a property, a long, long, long, long time at a property to do a good job as a good surveyor. And that is completely not the case. You know, you can be a good, good surveyor and be at a property for two hours and you can be a good survey and be at the property six hours and the Outcome is exactly the same. One's more efficient than the other, uh, and uses technology to enhance that process. And ultimately the person doing m it quicker is going to win more business because the client wants it quicker. In a world where they want things yesterday, that's the way it's got to go. So it's very much going to be the surveyor, the service. The surveyor is going to become more customer focused, even more so. I mean I remember years ago you'd never really speak to your client. You'd be sitting, you know, surveyors would be sitting behind a desk and the lender would send the job in and you'd never speak to anyone. Whereas now it's very, very much becoming more customer focused and service driven. And I think that's where surveyors have to develop their skills because they've learned how to be a surveyor, but uh, they've not learned how to be a customer service, you know, administrator for example. And a lot of my past experience as a hairdresser and then going into offices for surveying companies and working in customer service operations and sales, I already had that skill set there. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, shameless plug here, scaffold. Obviously it's, I'm not trying to sell it in any way but effectively that was developed off the basis of everything you've just said. It was all about efficiency. So in a nutshell, time is a commodity that you only have a certain amount of hours in a day and you need to, you know, with comparison sites and this and whatever, driving some prices down on surveys now. And it not necessarily being the, the um, it used to charge an X amount, a certain amount for it. And um, that's what it's worth because that's what your time's worth. And you have certain amount you have to do and so on and so forth. Um, but with the price coming down, obviously the. The time you have to do stuff, the more pressure to do more. So the, the benefit of something like, you know, the technologies using Scaffolds example, obviously we've developed that to create a framework to speed people's processes up, not to change how they do their inspection. That's the most important part of a survey. If you have a routine in which you complete that inspection whilst you're at the property, that needs to stay the same because that's how you've learned to do your trade. That's not, that's a competency, all falls into that category as well. But it's what you do around the admin side of things, how you write the report, when you write the report, how you generate a terms of engagement, all these administrative details that if they're not streamlined, take ages. Um, yeah, you know, the whole point of technology is taking something. So for example, Scaffold will take something that takes an hour and it will make you do it in 10 minutes. So you say 50 minutes, then 50 minutes you can have a really in depth post inspection phone call with a client and go over, you know, the intricacies of that survey, what you found, so on, so forth. I say that a lot by the way, so on, so forth. Sorry, uh, but you can go through all that and then you've given that extra layer. Whereas if you've got, um, you know, service level agreements to deliver that survey next day. But then also you need to do two surveys a day or seven valuations a day, all of a sudden your time's gone before you've even considered picking up the phone. And then if you're running your own business, that's taken away all the other bits like your business generation and sitting on really boring podcasts of random people that message you on LinkedIn. So, you know, time is a commodity. And I think you talk about AI and all this and there's a whole conversation and loads of podcasts on the Scaffold website about it. But the whole point is just to save time. And then as a surveyor you have a better work life balance or you have more time to deliver that client side of things. That's my viewpoint anyway. Sorry, well off the monologue then. That's all right. Completely, completely agree. Um, and that, that's basically been what I've developed over the years with, with my own business and um, processes. I mean, you know, when I was in, in the operations side of, of other surveying businesses working with Quest and clunky different systems that didn't interact with each Other, um, I thought, where's the solution here to the operational side of running a surveying business? And, and then it stretched onto the, the report writing side. And um. And actually if, if you're. I remember about 10 years ago and 20 years ago surveyors were baulking at the idea of a standard clause. Now everybody's using standard clauses. And, and I remember comments such as you're lazy if you use a standard clause. Well, actually you're opening yourself up to litigation if you don't standardise your wording. And also you're working inefficiently and inconsistently because how can you remember, uh, what you said in another report and put that into the next one if you haven't standardised your wording? And if you standardise as much as possible when you get to the property and you find the problems, you can particularise and make it, you know, fit that individual property and you're fully focused on the issues that you've identified and reporting them in the right way. Yeah. I think also one of the biggest, uh, innovations is being able to write the report whilst on site. Obviously that's not completing it, but it's that uh, you don't have to remember you're physically doing it whilst you see something, you know, you see some non safety glass in the kitchen, you just, you're noting it down, you're not scribbling it, uh, allegedly on a, on a wet piece of paper because it's been raining. Yeah, his reigns. But, but I think that that's the kind of the next. One of the most in innovative processes. I think. I've always written my reports on site, Rodri. I've never not. And, and I have conversations with many surveyors about this who, who can't understand how I do it. But quite frankly I'm going to be putting in my notes the walls are constructed of cavity construction and then I'm going to be putting in the report the walls are constructed of cavity construction. So why am I going to double my process? Put it in the report? Yeah, I think when it, you don't. You don't, you don't have problems if all your information is in the report. You have problems if it's in your notes and um, not in your reports. Yeah. Right. So it's very much a case of forget that and focus on um, what, you know, what's going out to the client at all times. Yeah. One of the main driving, um, developments behind Scaffold was if you've duplicated something, you're doing it Wrong. So you should only ever have to write something once, whether that's your name, your company, the client's name. Like if you're writing that when you're setting the job up, you should never have to write it again. And it goes all the way through the process. So minimise duplication means you save in time massively. Uh, let's move on to the professional negotiation certificate. So, you know, I think we've talked about the kind of innovation and that side of things, but talk to me more about this and negotiation, um, skills in today's market. So we developed this product about two years ago. We spent about six months doing a bit of market research with our clients, the home buyers, you know, which is our perfect audience and, uh, the perfect target market for us. And every time we did a survey, we would, we always follow up with a, uh, post. We have unlimited post survey support for our clients. So with many, many, many conversations about the results that come out of a survey report, how much things are probably going to cost. And obviously we're not there to give quotes. We're not contractors, everybody knows that. But we can give a, an idea on, on how much we think it's going to cost. And there's, you know, various sources that we use for that. But ultimately we would have the conversation and then, bye, and they're off. And then I thought actually that's when they need us the most. And actually it was me and my co director, Garrett, and, um, put our heads together. It was actually probably following us, writing the book. Ah, because a lot of the pitfalls of buying property and how to buy property the right way are in the book. And we come out of it and we said, well, how can we solve this problem? Um, and that's when we developed the professional negotiation certificate. So ultimately it takes issues that we've identified with a property that warrant negotiation. It's not a dated kitchen, dated bathroom. That's very obvious. And an agent would have marketed it with that, uh, knowledge. But it's the issues that we, as only surveyors that are professionally, you know, qualified to assess buildings in that way are able to determine. So it's things like new roof, damp, contingency for concealed decay, rot, that's that type of thing. And we list those repairs in a certificate and we ourselves apply a negotiation point for each element, which would then eventually end up with, uh, a range. So you end up with. We recommend you negotiate between this figure, uh, and this figure based on the average of how much those repairs would cost. And it will take things into consideration, such as disruption materials, labour, you know, that sort of thing. And, um, it won't show the client individual cost because we're not there to quote. It's very obvious from our terms and, um, within the preamble text, within the certificate, uh, that it is a negotiation suggestion, it is not quotes and it very much explains they should still get quotes if they. If they want to get a more accurate idea on costs. But what it's doing is speeding up the transaction process because once somebody's got a survey report and they say, oh, and you say, oh, you've got to go and get quotes. Now, that can take weeks. I've. Uh-huh. Heard of roofers charging to come out and give a quote. I've heard people say they can't come out for eight weeks. Right. So this is, this is, this is why most of the time the transaction times are taking as long as they take. So we've eliminated that time problem and they're able to present this certificate to the estate agent and to the vendor and say, you know, we put our offer in on the property before we knew the full condition. Now we are in the knowledge of its full condition. We would like to negotiate and attach the negotiation certificate. And quite frankly, you know, buyers get asked, uh, all the time to share their reports with the estate agent. And unfortunately, one, that's a conflict of interest, Two, it can be used fraudulently because I've seen situations where vendors have been hidden and masked problems to hide them from future surveyors and future purchasers. So. So it completely eliminates that side of things and it gives the agent the proof that they need to be able to say and, and do what they're great at, which is negotiate and get the two parties together and say, do you know what, I've got this document here. Let's, let's work together and let's find a happy medium. And you know my argument always is why should a buyer huh be financially impacted on. Because somebody hasn't maintained their property. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean you hit on a. I like, I really like it because you hit on a point that is very close to my heart. But I'm very um, passionate about is as a surveyor you sometimes have this. You can get a reputation quite easily as Dr. Death or someone that's just going out there to collapse a sale. But like it's never the case. As a surveyor you're. The client wants to buy the house. The client has just paid you X amount to commit to the house. But they just want to know. So your job is not to rip that house apart and say oh, don't buy that. Your job is to kind of work with them to make sure they can buy their dream house. But they're going into their eyes wide open knowing what they've got to do but also give them the ability to possibly like you've said, renegotiate the price fairly and um, with substantial evidence backing up in this case so that not only they can buy the house but they do actually have the funds and means necessary thereafter was to complete the work. Um, and also doing it in a time efficient manner. Because you talk about the day, the day the world we live in these days is everything needs to be done by yesterday. Um, so you tick several boxes there and it's really unique way of looking at it. And I've never, you know, I always spend a lot of time on my post inspection calls going into that kind of detail. Um, you know, working on saying like it says this but you don't worry, it's like they'll see a red A condition read a condition rating three. Which understandably, um, but it's having that conversation, that's where I focus most of my efforts sometimes is to ensure that I'm working to make this transaction happen but with the best interest of my clients at the absolute forefront of everything I'm doing. Which is very much what you're doing, just in a better way. No, no, absolutely spot on. Um, what we've done is we've taken that feeling of wanting to do that. And we've materialised it. We've created something that allows surveyors, uh, you know, to provide that support, to provide that ongoing service. Because, you know, at the end of the day, home buyers buy property on average every 10 years. They're negotiating against an agent who does it every single day. They're negotiating against somebody who's there to work on the opposite side of the transaction and is there to ultimately get the worst deal for. For the buyer. And I don't begrudge them for doing that. That's. That's their job. Who's there for the buyer? Uh, you know, and that's where we, as professional surveyors, the only ones that are qualified to assess buildings in the way that we do, need to step up and remind people why we are such an integral part of the process and why actually people need to have the survey done straight away. Yeah. At the beginning. That way, you know, there's no point m. Thinking about it three months into the, into the transaction process, often I've turned up to properties and people say, oh, meant to be exchanging next week. You know, people need to be encouraged to do it much earlier. And ultimately it will all come out in the open earlier and people will reach that negotiation position much earlier in the process. Everybody's, you know, aware of where they are and what they need to do. And, um, it's a much more effective way of working, um, what we have experienced. And it's still. It's something that really, really gets. Gets on my nerves. It's the amount of surveyors that are, uh, scared to upset agents. They're scared to upset agents and they're scared, uh, to not receive referrals from them on the back of survey reports or providing a negotiation. Because, you know, part of what we're doing is we are going to be licencing the professional negotiation certificate out to other surveyors so that they can also provide this service. Because this is something that is needed on a national level. Right. We've created it, we are the creators. It's trademarks and copyright protected, you know, but we want this to be able to be available to people nationally. Um, but the amount of conversations that we've had and the amount of surveyors that are scared to introduce something that is so powerful. And ultimately, this is why I won a Trailblazer Award. Right? Because this is a Trailblazer, uh, product. This, this is a. This is changing how, how it works and something has needed to be improved. And you can have many conversations of, oh, this needs improving. And, oh yeah, it's bad, isn't it? And, oh, actually it's the action. It's taking action. And if you don't take the action, it never going to change. And you know, you think of any change, you're never going to please everybody. There's always going to be someone that disagrees with what you're doing or is as uncomfortable with it. And once you've got through that process, and I've had so many conversations with people about this and once you've explained it in the way that I have to you just now, most people, it's like a light bulb moment and they go, do you know what? Even loads of agents that I've won over speaking to about it and, and they go, oh, you know what, that's actually brilliant. Yeah. You know, I think it's a really. Good tool to, you know, quite. You do, you do need agents. They should be recommending surveys. Um, I've been a sales agent myself in a former life and I think it's. It should be part of the process. But you say get it in the beginning, but they should, if they, if they're positive, they should see this in a way of making sure that house sale continues. So, you know, without. This is a method to, to build the bridges between what a normal client might think, actually, well, now I shouldn't buy this house. And then you're saying, actually, well, you should. Um, and then it could be used as a tool to actually make that process go through. Yes, I know they get paid commissions and I know if there's a renegotiation, their commission's affected. I'm not naive in that regard. But ultimately, um, 2% of nothing is nothing. So if that sale falls through, they lose everything. So absolutely it's a tool for them to enable that kind of sales process to go through if substantial defects have been noted and go through quicker. Exactly. Which means they can then spend time selling another property. It's all about efficiency. Yeah. You may take, you know, like you say, you might take a slight reduction on a sale, but that's move on to the, move on to the next one, getting offers in on other properties and, you know, and as I say, it's all about efficiency and making that, uh, quicker. And if you can speed up the home buying process, you can sell more property as an agent. Yeah, no, definitely. Well, this, um, professional negotiation certificate seems like something I need to integrate to scaffold. Just saying. We'll have a chat about that. Yeah, we will. No, um, I did have A couple of other questions, but being quite honest, you pretty much covered them all in, um, in that. So, um. Yeah, you've ruined my question notes. Uh, no, I'll say it's a good way to finish it off though, because, you know, we've talked about how the, the kind of process is evolving from the side of Zafaya and, you know, the innovation, how innovation and technology helps. Uh, but then also we've discussed a bit from, you know, a different point in regards to. It's not all about focusing the attention, the quality and competencies of the actual survey. Super important, the most important thing, don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning that, but it's viewing it from a different point of view where you're actually looking at what is, what is best for your clients outside of the home survey standards, which, you know, there are rules, there are guidelines, there are legislation, they are the rule book. But what will set you apart as a surveyor, uh, and make you successful compared to the other surveyor down the road who's offering the same service? And, uh, it's a really interesting point. It's not something I've actually really talked to anyone about. I've got my own thoughts and stuff on it, obviously having run my own business. Um, but it's really amazing to hear it from a different point of view and, um, from a point of view where you've identified a massive, massive issue and you've addressed it and you formalised it, um, and you've made it something that other people can actually use and, um, you know, learn from as well, which I think is absolutely amazing. So, yeah, fair play to you. Thank you. Thank. Couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you very much. Well, I say, um, thank you so much for joining me on the, uh, on the podcast. And, um, yeah, I'll hopefully might have to get you on again at some time because I'm sure you're trailblazed and think of another innovative idea at some point, which I'm definitely gonna want to be involved in. So, uh, thank you so much. Any closing. Any closing comments from you? No, no, I've, I've said everything that I, uh, that I want to say, but thank you very much for having me, and having me, you know, share this information on, on your podcast. It's, it's really important that we, we get this message out to, uh, as many people as possible. So I really appreciate you having me on. No, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. And, uh, yeah, hopefully we'll catch up again soon. Thank you, Rhodri.